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Traversing higher dimensions and the weirdness of it.

#1
OK so I'm going to try to explain this as simply as possible without losing the explanation, this is in regards to so called "hyper space" or as it's more aptly known, hyperbolic space.

now to start with, you have euclidean, spherical, and hyperbolic space/time.

the first is simple, a flat plane with objects on it, from the observer all lines are straight as well as from above, a dimension someone living in euclidean space cannot see.

think of it like living on a piece of paper, not the surface but on that plane of existence.

you exist in 2 dimensions and if someone where to pass a sphere or ball though it you wouldn't see the ball.

you'd see a dot, which becomes a circle, getting larger and larger until it stops then gets smaller and becomes a dot again, then as before the dot ceases to be.

that dot exists in a dimension you are not aware of and cannot perceive, in this case the third dimension.

the same is true for higher dimensions and this is important when thinking about black holes and singularities.

The second, Spherical space is like what we're living in now.

all lines eventually converge and as before everything travels along that 2 dimensional axis, the only difference is, if you were to travel in a straight line on that 2D plane, you'd end up eventually reaching the same point, and if two people walked a straight line they'd meet at roughly 45 degrees halfway along the sphere.

weird I know right?

it get's weirder... then you have hyperbolic space/time...
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ok so that's a 2D hyperbolic object, it's technically a circle and you can travel from one end to the other, but it get's weirder.

imagine the real world, our space time, it's like moving along the edge of this object and it takes ages to go around it even though for us it's perceived as a straight line, much like 2D people on that hyperbolic object.

the reality is, the fastest way to travel between two points is a straight line, however the straight line of the plane you exist on is not necessarily the straightest line across an object that exists in more than 3 dimensions such as space/time.

in fact according to string and M theory there could be up to 11 dimensions!

so in theory the distance from earth to let's say the andromeda galaxy is much shorter across a curved hyperbolic object in the dimension closer to the object's actual dimensions than it is in our 3 dimensions.

crazy right?

so that means traveling through Hyper-space or hyperbolic space is taking a straighter path than through 3 dimensional space.

now there are other ways to traverse these distances.

you can travel hyperbolic space of course, provided you have a way of accessing it.

you can bridge 2 points by creating a wormhole through hyperbolic space allowing you to traverse it without leaving your space/time.

you can fold it through hyperbolic space side/stepping it entirely and just jumping across with a folded space or jump drive.

or you can traverse 3 dimensional space by bending or warping it in a manner similar to folding space only less intensive with a warp drive or gateway.

and then there's the space above hyperbolic space, much like how we can see the entirety of a sphere or a flat piece of paper if you were to go above hyperbolic space some how you could exit at any point within hyperbolic space effectively short cutting the straightest line with an arc, this is how some science fiction depicts jump drives and such.

effectively that would be the multiverse though, you leave the universe and re-enter it at a different point.

as a side note though I recently learned of a new multiverse theory that kinda shook up all this.

the multiverse may in fact all be part of our perceived universe, and each universe is like a pocket of causality on the same space/time which means simply using hyperbolic space would allow you to travel to other universes, not that you would want to, they would have completely different laws of physics with infinite possibilities starting from their own big bangs.

this also means that space/time has always existed and that universes are merely periods of chaos from explosions as entropy normalizes that region of space/time.

for us that's trillions upon trillions of years from now, but it does mean the universe doesn't die, instead the space/time we exist in is literally everywhere and everything at once, it is older than we can imagine, and will exist longer than we can perceive, and when our universe returns to static empty space/time, another universe will simply pop into being where ours was now, or at least nearby it.

Don't forget that as spacetime normalizes from the compression in the singularity everything get's farther and farther apart too, though this may apply less in higher dimensions where you can side/step the ripples, hills, and valleys in and around gravity wells which we currently have to travel along.

not that this matters for us humans of course lol.

anyway wanted to get that out there, get knowledge out and stuff!
Zalost - out.
Darth-Apple and Guardian like this post
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#2
I love this stuff. I've studied it as well as Quantum Mechanics for a large number of years. Very cool! My two favorite elements are the Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment and the double slit experiment. Blows my mind every time!
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#3
@zoldos what are your thoughts on hyperspace, variable speed of light and the various multiverse theories?
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#4
Not too sure about hyperspace or variable speed of light (I didn't think that was possible in fact). I've fallen behind on it all and haven't read anything on the subject in like a decade. As for the multiverse, I totally believe in that and beings from alternate dimensions (alternate versions of us perhaps?).
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#5
@zoldos so here's the thing.

I say variable, it's weird.

But the local speed of light is relative to the density of mass and by extension space/time in an area.

Light acts like it's experiencing drag by constantly changing state and bleeding off energy over time going between a particle and a wave as it travels at this limitation.

This has two consequences, the first is that the universe could be a bit younger than we thought or larger because the speed of light should be higher between galaxies than in them.

But also black holes don't have infinite mass.

In fact it's more accurate to say that the density of space time near them brings the speed of light lower than the escape velocity of the object.

If a black hole truly had infinite mass it would be eating more than they do constantly.

This in turn explains why galaxies often form around large ones, the bigger the black hole the larger the region of distorted space time and the lower the gravitational sheer relative to the object, in fact you could theoretically traverse the event horizon of a supermassive black hole and not instantly spaghettify.

This also has implications for the multiverse in that it it's self is a region of distorted space time, which means both movement speed and perceived time is slower inside the universe than outside of it. And it's slowly returning to its non singularity state, the density allowing for our laws of physics to work but not outside it.
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#6
Cool man, digging it. I mainly study Quantum Mechanics, but did read a lot on black holes from the late Stephen Hawking.

Here's something I've pondered for awhile: The faster you move, the slower time elapses. This has been proven to a high degree of accuracy. Theoretically then, if you achieve light speed, time apparently stops all together. So, doesn't that mean that, from light's perspective, it travels at infinite velocity, since no time is elapsing for it? Big Grin
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#7
That is correct, however it gets better.

Because the photons, from the moment they leave their source to the moment they hit your eyes, could be thousands of years but for the photon, no time has passed at all, it was literally instant.

That entire distance, thousands of years of time, over in the blink of an eye.
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#8
(February 28th, 2021 at 4:05 PM)SpookyZalost Wrote: That is correct, however it gets better.

Because the photons, from the moment they leave their source to the moment they hit your eyes, could be thousands of years but for the photon, no time has passed at all, it was literally instant.

That entire distance, thousands of years of time, over in the blink of an eye.

Yup.  Infinite velocity.  Trippy stuff.  What also gets me all crazy is that the deeper into space we look, the further back in time we are going because, by our perspective, it took millions, if not billions of years for the light we are observing to reach us.  The whole Universe could be gone and we won't know for millions of years!!
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#9
@zoldos then I have bad news for you.

the rate of expansion combined with the distances involved means that the vast majority of galaxies we see, have already moved beyond the visible universe, we're just seeing the light from where they were.

and unfortunately that means without traveling faster than light... we'll never be able to reach beyond the local group, the universe is simply expanding, quite literally faster than light relative to us.
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#10
That reminds me of the theories that we are in a local minima, not an absolute minima in quantum energy states, hence the possibility of spantaneous explosion of the universe.

A lot of that doesn't fully make sense to me, but I've been studying the general idea. Basically, matter wants to get to an absolute minimum energy possible (in some ways similar to how heat spreads, as hotter objects want to transfer energy to colder objects to reach their minimum energy state), and there is increasing evidence that matter itself, at the quantum level, settles into a minimum that is fairly stable, but not stable with absolute certainty. In other words, we are in an almost safe plateu, but there is a small chance something could trip off the edge and set off a catastrophic chain reaction. In quantum physics (where things act rather strangly), that's legitimately possible.

Matter could "collapse lower" (and we're talking about matter at the quantum level, not about temperature) by a very small chance. And if it does, that collapse releases energy that has to go somewhere, and hence it spreads, causing a bubble that would grow close to the speed of light. Current theory suggests that this would spell disaster, as it would collapse all of the matter within the ever expanding bubble to the lowest energy level as well. This would create an exponentially expanding reaction that would spread and become astronomically powerful. It would absolutely drawf the most powerful atomic bombs ever conceived to distant memory by hundreds of orders of magnitude.

The chances of that happening are very small, but not zero, and it just has to happen in one tiny isolated part of space to spread. If that were to happen somewhere in the universe, much of the universe could, in theory, already be destroyed and we wouldn't find out until it reached us, when we would all be incinerated within a split second. We would eventually be greeted rather suddenly by what would essentially look to us like a massive wall of fire that would arrive so fast we couldn't even see it coming.

Is it likely? Not exactly. But is is possible?

Apparently, quantum theory suggests that the answer is yes. And given enough time (we're talking trillions of trillions of years) - it might even be inevitable.

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#11
Sudden quantum void entropic collapse.

Probably the scariest thing I've ever read about and something that gives most astrophysicists nightmares

I would love to note btw that as the universe expands, the space between particles also increases which could over time increase the probability of this happening towards heat death as the forces keeping it where it is would no longer do so.
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#12
We need to build warp drive
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#13
(September 30th, 2021 at 4:52 AM)SpookyZalost Wrote: Sudden quantum void entropic collapse.

Probably the scariest thing I've ever read about and something that gives most astrophysicists nightmares

I would love to note btw that as the universe expands, the space between particles also increases which could over time increase the probability of this happening towards heat death as the forces keeping it where it is would no longer do so.

Yea there is a limit to how far it could spread in a sense. It spreads at the speed of light, and there will always be space that it can expand to. But with the rate of expansion of space as we know it today, there would be some parts of the universe that would be unreacheable because the space between would be growing at a rate that is larger than the speed of light. If this collapse happens outside of the observable universe, it would never reach us. 

The scary thing is that if it did happen relatively nearby, we would never know until we were incinerated alive. The chances are pretty small, but non-zero, and we know that in quantum mechanics, anything that can happen will happen. Murphy's law rules. 

I'm curious what happens AFTER, though. I mean, after it all settles into its new lower energy state, the true minima, what exactly does everything look like after? Would there be new stars, new planets, new worlds that would form in the wake of the ashes of what was left behind?

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#14
No actually... If this happened then the fundamental constants that allow matter to exist wouldn't anymore.

It'd be instant heat death, a Thanos snap only with a 100% casualty rate.

Nothing would happen for an insane amount of time, like 10x10x10x10x10x10x10 to the 78th power.

Then quantum vacuum randomness and instability would cause a new dense region to form, as it always does and.... Boom, another big bang would fill in the space of the old universe.
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#15
(September 30th, 2021 at 4:03 AM)SpookyZalost Wrote: @zoldos then I have bad news for you.

the rate of expansion combined with the distances involved means that the vast majority of galaxies we see, have already moved beyond the visible universe, we're just seeing the light from where they were.

and unfortunately that means without traveling faster than light... we'll never be able to reach beyond the local group, the universe is simply expanding, quite literally faster than light relative to us.

Has this been proven with observation?  I know the expansion of the Universe has been observed, but how can it be doing so faster than light speed?
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#16
@zoldos relative to us, key point there.

Everything is expanding away from everything else, it's just that the total velocity between us and them is faster than light.  It's part of the reason why objects seem slightly more red or blue shifted than they should purely by distance.

It does mean that the expansion of the universe is expanding at a not insignificant fraction of light speed where the objects farthest from us are concerned.

The best way I can explain it is that the farther away an object is, the faster it's moving away because the space in-between is expanding and all that expansion adds up.

So like if the universe is expanding a million miles per light year, and a galaxy is 2 billion light years away, then it's expanding a million times 2 billion miles per year at that distance or something like that.

Making relatively nearby objects move faster than light relative to us.

This means that. Most galaxies outside the local group have moved outside our current 14 billion light year sphere of vision by the time their light reaches us.  The universe has simply expanded that space by that much.

Worse, the universe is increasing in it's expansion velocity.

In 6 or 7 billion years or so, we likely won't see other galaxies as the void beyond the combined Milky way/Andromeda and whatever dwarf galaxies remain, will reach about 20 billion light years of nothingness, the expansion having moved their position of light emission far enough away that it would never reach us.  

We're sort of at the cusp of a time when we can still observe the universe as it is and was in the beginning.  Future intelligent life may not even be aware of anything beyond here.
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#17
Ah, interesting stuff! I need to get back into it. I haven't read a good book on it in awhile. I mainly studied Quantum Theory for awhile (I love the double slit experiment) but want to get more into Relativity theory.
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#18
@zoldos you should hop onto the Discord sometime, Darth and I recently had a really crazy discussion on quantum theory, multidimensional physics, and how they relate to singularities and space/time.

With some terrifying conclusions.
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